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 Brian on dinosaurs/evolution

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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:22 am

can't wait till someone proves the non existence of "god", till then, be afraid and believe in god if you must, I won't. and Harbortown is pretty much right Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:43 am

Believing in God is fine, got no problem with that as long as you don't try and force your belief on me. I detest that. But evolution is pretty much undeniable. Creationism and evolution don't have to go hand in hand though.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:29 am

I think respect for other people's beliefs and opinions on a subject like this is an absolute must. I personally don't beleive in God, but it doesn't matter to me if anyone else does. Seriously why is it such a big deal? Whether or not someone beleives in a God, or evolution has no affect on me at all. I agree with everyone who said that they don't like it when people try to force thier faith on you, but it goes both ways.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:22 pm

joe wrote:
thebiglebowski wrote:
If anyone is unaware of it, wikipedia Pascal's Paradox. Pretty interesting to have a sound mathematical argument about why it makes sense to be a Christian and not an atheist even if you think the chances the Christians are right is .000000001. Not saying it is a perfect argument, though, just interesting.

Pascal's wager is pretty interesting, although quite flawed. The wager basically asks "what've you got to lose by believing in a god, either you're right and you go to heaven or you're wrong and you're dead anyway?" It assumes that an omnipotent God is foolish enough to reward someone for believing only because there's a "mathematical" chance they can get into heaven.

Also, Pascal's wager fails to account for the many other religions in existence. Most religions today claim that they are the "one true" god, and that belief in another God is punishable by eternal torment. So the same question can be asked of any believer, "What if Christianity is wrong, and Islam is correct?" "What if Christianity is wrong, and Shintoism is correct?"

Like, thebiglebowski said - it's an interesting argument but not perfect. It is an argument you encounter quite often with theists. Fun to discuss and to debunk. Smile

Yeah, for sure. Just to further the discussion (I think my posts have shown that I am not a greatly spiritual person):

How many people would be Christians without the threat of going to hell if they didn't? We aren't born Christian. I guess this is my belief because I can't prove it, but everybody, religious or otherwise, at some point in their life makes this decision (even if they don't frame it as a probability problem). The Christians just refuse to admit that they ever considered the possibility they could be wrong before deciding to become Christian. Also, Who says God would view thinking this way is "foolish"? When someone talks to God and determines that using mathematics to justify having faith is improper, let me know.

For the second point, I believe that prominent Christians/Jews/Islamics have all determined that they pray to the same God, just differ on who they believe are his prophets. I'm sure some extremists would say that if you pick the wrong religion out of these 3 you do not get into heaven, but maybe just believing in this God is enough (even if you get the specifics of how to worship wrong). Your point is still valid for comparing Christianity to non-monotheistic religions, but name me a non-monotheistic religion that has a heaven and hell? I'm not sure if there is one. I believe these are more about spirits that control this world. Reaching Buddhist Zen is pretty close to a heaven but if you screw it up this time, you get another chance in your next life (thus it doesn't apply to the paradox very well). If these religions don't contain heaven and hell there is no "payoff" to pascal's paradox (ie if there is no hell to be afraid of, believe in however many gods you want. It doesn't change your lot in (the) (after)life.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:53 pm

I might be in the minority here, but I think it's kind of refreshing to see how Brian is open about his beliefs and is confident enough to share them. So many people are afraid to discuss religion, which is kind of a sad reflection on the world today. Even though we might not all believe the same things, we should still be open and accepting enough to hear what others have to say, right? I am Christian, but I would never tell someone of another faith that what they believe is wrong. It's just not my place and what they believe is up to them.

And to touch on the reason this thread was started, I have read online that Brian has stated that of course he does believe in dinosaurs (on Twitter maybe? It's been a little while...), so maybe the translation from English to German was off, or maybe his words were taken out of context like others have said.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:48 pm

Harbortown wrote:
I think that not believing in evolution is kinda like not believing in the holocaust.
that is disgustingly offensive.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:13 pm

Labhras wrote:
Harbortown wrote:
I think that not believing in evolution is kinda like not believing in the holocaust.
that is disgustingly offensive.

Why?

The point (admitting that I am expanding on someone else's statement and may not say exactly what they intended) is that they are similar in that there is a mountain of evidence to support that they both happened, yet some people continue to believe that they didn't. The arguments against them are pretty ridiculous ("dinosaur bones were planted by the devil to deceive people into not believing", I'm not even gonna spout any of the stupid propaganda that comes from the other side). If read this thinking that Harbortown is saying that people who don't believe in evolution are equal human beings to neo-nazis, then you are adding something that isn't there to the statement.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:18 pm

Bea wrote:
ok so he doesn't believe in evolution, what's the big deal? scratch

If you don't believe in evolution then you don't believe in education.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:19 pm

Labhras wrote:
Harbortown wrote:
I think that not believing in evolution is kinda like not believing in the holocaust.
that is disgustingly offensive.
On the contrary, my friend.

Like Thebiglebowski said, there's evidence to support evolution as well as the holocaust. So to suggest that evolution is a lie despite there being proof of it is just about as offensive as saying the holocaust is fake despite there being evidence to back it up.

To think that human scientists have come this far only to have people tell them that they're lying is weird. It's fucking weird, man.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:24 pm

Godwin's Law much?

Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Not picking a fight, I just think it is unnecessary to draw the analogy in this discussion (or ever, at all), you could have said the roman empire or just about anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:31 pm

I'm agnostic and am open to religion and respect the various beliefs across the world.

But evolution has more empirical evidence and logical support than any other theory or religion.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:34 pm

Perry wrote:
Godwin's Law much?

Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Not picking a fight, I just think it is unnecessary to draw the analogy in this discussion (or ever, at all), you could have said the roman empire or just about anything.
I would suspect that the reason he chose to reference the Holocaust is because that is an event that some ignorant people deny happened. That's the obvious parallel that can be drawn. There is absolutely nothing offensive or inflammatory about what Harbortown said. Just because the Holocaust was a terrible, terrible event doesn't mean that we can't discuss it in reasonable terms.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:52 pm

"People should not believe that evolution is fake because they would be naive and ignorant if they do."


So this sentence above reflects more or less of what people are saying about why evolution is true

Now take evolution and replace it with a band, or any other topic

Basically what your telling someone is that their not allowed to like or believe what they want


My point, who cares, if you want to believe something is not true, fake or what ever, go ahead. If your not harming anyone then fine by me. I personally feel people who tell someone their stupid to believe in something because the facts or what ever are the ones more wrong. I think we should have evolved more to tolerate other peoples views then bash them, this applies to music, politics, religion or what ever you can replace evolution above with. As long as your not forcing people to believe, against their will, or hurting them- live and let live

And so someone doesn't think I'm biased, I believe in evolution, I'm just not going to force someone to believe my views,

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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:56 pm

Quote :
Now take evolution and replace it with a band, or any other topic

Basically what your telling someone is that their not allowed to like or believe what they want
Not the same thing at all.

Music appreciation comes down to opinion, not "believing" in evolution is just pure ignorance and childish denial.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:02 pm

If you read my whole post what I'm saying, is any topic, who are you to say someone shouldnt be allowed to believe what they want, if its not harming anyone, fine by me

I might think that your being stupid for not being reasonable when facts are in front of you, but who am i to say, I believe in stuff that others may disagree with

As the famous quote from voltaire says

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:14 pm

I think the problem with religious people telling everybody that we should all respect each others beliefs is that most religion is inherently intolerant of everybody's beliefs. I mean, I'm happy that if a Christian says they don't care that I'm an atheist. But the fact is the scripture and divine law of your religion says that if I do not believe their specific set of religious ideals, I face an eternal punishment of being burned in hell. I just don't see where we can find common ground there.

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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:24 pm

If your saying that I'm Christian and telling everyone to be tolerant religously and stuff, that wasn't what I was saying, and I'm pretty far away from a religious persons, for some of the reasons you even mentioned, but I don't think that's what you ment.

All I'm saying, respect others ideas, and beliefs, and who cares if someone believes something you don't, you can always ignore them, I mean going back to the holocaust stuff, that alone pretty much happened because people couldn't tolerate others beliefs and ideas.


I forget the saying, but I goes some thing like

If you forget the past, history is likely to repeat itself

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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:12 pm

Jay wrote:
I think the problem with religious people telling everybody that we should all respect each others beliefs is that most religion is inherently intolerant of everybody's beliefs. I mean, I'm happy that if a Christian says they don't care that I'm an atheist. But the fact is the scripture and divine law of your religion says that if I do not believe their specific set of religious ideals, I face an eternal punishment of being burned in hell. I just don't see where we can find common ground there.


If you are referencing what I said, I don't think we need to find common ground. I honestly don't care if other people believe what I do as a Christian or not. People can believe whatever they want, and if I don't agree with them, who cares? It should be our right as human beings to believe whatever we want without being persecuted by anyone. Live and let live, live and let die, and try to be open minded and tolerant, no matter what your beliefs.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:13 pm

Debonair wrote:
If you read my whole post what I'm saying, is any topic, who are you to say someone shouldnt be allowed to believe what they want, if its not harming anyone, fine by me

I might think that your being stupid for not being reasonable when facts are in front of you, but who am i to say, I believe in stuff that others may disagree with

As the famous quote from voltaire says

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.

I get your point. Trust me, I get it. I disagree that denying evolution does not harm anyone. It slows down the advancement of the knowledge of the human race. It sends the message that species extinction is not an incredibly common occurrence throughout the history of the world, demonstrating how fragile our ecosystems are. It separates us from animals as superior beings rather than coexisting species that are incredibly common genetically, making it easier to justify the worst things we do to them (side note--watch "the cove" if you haven't).

Also, I would conjecture that religion is the second largest cause of non-natural death, war, and suffering in our history, behind money.

I agree with you if you are talking about your average person who leads a normal life and chooses to believe in God. Believe in whatever you want. I don't believe there are many "normal" Christians who refuse to believe in evolution. The people who don't believe in evolution, I would classify as "extremists", and extremists have done a lot of bad things to humanity.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:02 pm

I wasn't really referencing either of you; I'm just kind of responding to the general sentiment of the thread which was: Let everybody believe whatever they want to and everything will be great.

It's a great idea. It just hasn't ever been realistic. The war the United States is in in Afghanistan is in direct response to religious extremists who killed thousands of people simply because they do not believe the same set of ideas. The Crusades, the ongoing trouble in Israel, etc, are all because religion has proven that it has not been and can't be tolerant.

I just try to live a good life, even without the consequences of religion. It saddens me a bit that people can't just try to live good lives without the threat of hell or the reward of heaven. I mean, I'd hate to think that the only thing that is stopping some people from rape or murder is the threat of hell. And if you know that that is not the case for yourself (and I'm just speaking generally here) but still do look to religion for a moral code, I'd maybe ask to consider that morality is not borne in religion, and that every concept that is considered "good" in religious practice, like compassion, forgiveness, and service can all still be done while not adhering to the dogma that causes violent and social conflict.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:08 pm

My only view is that constantly telling people what you don't believe in is a waste of energy and rather negative.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:22 pm

Jay wrote:
I wasn't really referencing either of you; I'm just kind of responding to the general sentiment of the thread which was: Let everybody believe whatever they want to and everything will be great.

It's a great idea. It just hasn't ever been realistic. The war the United States is in in Afghanistan is in direct response to religious extremists who killed thousands of people simply because they do not believe the same set of ideas. The Crusades, the ongoing trouble in Israel, etc, are all because religion has proven that it has not been and can't be tolerant.

I just try to live a good life, even without the consequences of religion. It saddens me a bit that people can't just try to live good lives without the threat of hell or the reward of heaven. I mean, I'd hate to think that the only thing that is stopping some people from rape or murder is the threat of hell. And if you know that that is not the case for yourself (and I'm just speaking generally here) but still do look to religion for a moral code, I'd maybe ask to consider that morality is not borne in religion, and that every concept that is considered "good" in religious practice, like compassion, forgiveness, and service can all still be done while not adhering to the dogma that causes violent and social conflict.

Crusades were about money/land. Religion was used as a tool to justify them.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:34 pm

thebiglebowski wrote:
Jay wrote:
I wasn't really referencing either of you; I'm just kind of responding to the general sentiment of the thread which was: Let everybody believe whatever they want to and everything will be great.

It's a great idea. It just hasn't ever been realistic. The war the United States is in in Afghanistan is in direct response to religious extremists who killed thousands of people simply because they do not believe the same set of ideas. The Crusades, the ongoing trouble in Israel, etc, are all because religion has proven that it has not been and can't be tolerant.

I just try to live a good life, even without the consequences of religion. It saddens me a bit that people can't just try to live good lives without the threat of hell or the reward of heaven. I mean, I'd hate to think that the only thing that is stopping some people from rape or murder is the threat of hell. And if you know that that is not the case for yourself (and I'm just speaking generally here) but still do look to religion for a moral code, I'd maybe ask to consider that morality is not borne in religion, and that every concept that is considered "good" in religious practice, like compassion, forgiveness, and service can all still be done while not adhering to the dogma that causes violent and social conflict.

Crusades were about money/land. Religion was used as a tool to justify them.
You could argue that to an extent, but hundreds of thousands were fighting and most of them didn't see a penny of that money.
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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:37 pm

Quote :
You could argue that to an extent, but hundreds of thousands were fighting and most of them didn't see a penny of that money.

War in general, fighting for another mans profit


Haha this topic is going all over the place now

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PostSubject: Re: Brian on dinosaurs/evolution   Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:46 pm

thebiglebowski wrote:
Jay wrote:
I wasn't really referencing either of you; I'm just kind of responding to the general sentiment of the thread which was: Let everybody believe whatever they want to and everything will be great.

It's a great idea. It just hasn't ever been realistic. The war the United States is in in Afghanistan is in direct response to religious extremists who killed thousands of people simply because they do not believe the same set of ideas. The Crusades, the ongoing trouble in Israel, etc, are all because religion has proven that it has not been and can't be tolerant.

I just try to live a good life, even without the consequences of religion. It saddens me a bit that people can't just try to live good lives without the threat of hell or the reward of heaven. I mean, I'd hate to think that the only thing that is stopping some people from rape or murder is the threat of hell. And if you know that that is not the case for yourself (and I'm just speaking generally here) but still do look to religion for a moral code, I'd maybe ask to consider that morality is not borne in religion, and that every concept that is considered "good" in religious practice, like compassion, forgiveness, and service can all still be done while not adhering to the dogma that causes violent and social conflict.

Crusades were about money/land. Religion was used as a tool to justify them.

...?

I'm just not seeing why that matters. So without religion, there is no justification for the crusades? Thanks for proving my point.

And the Crusades were originally fought for control of Jerusalem, the holy city, which is a religious cause.
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